The debate: #MeToo and the Welsh national movement


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John Young
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John Young

I usually, when reading posts here, see arguments from both sides and accept the logic of what’s being said from the writers viewpoint even if I disagree with the writer. I haven’t read the whole piece yet, only Dylan Llyr’s part so far, but felt the need to comment immediately. His argument that ‘What feminists actually want is quite simple, which is for men to stop harassing them’ is laughable in it’s simplicity. It suggests that it’s only men who don’t have a clear understanding of what is the ‘boundary between what is acceptable and the inappropriate when interacting with… Read more »

Tellyesin
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Tellyesin

Dude. You need to get out more. Seriously.

JD
Guest
JD

Aled’s article on Golwg and now on here speak so much sense and represent the view of the majority. As a woman, I think #MeToo is nothing but digital hysteria and needs to stop.

Da iawn Aled – there is absolutely nothing in your article above that people can reasonably disagree with.

jonesy
Guest
jonesy

#metoo i am with you JD as a woman and a feminist, of course its bad to sexual harass – funny that the assembly has won a workplace award for LBGBT but seems to be a den of sexual pests and harassment depsite having loads of women in powerful positions there and a quite good gender balance, mind you it didn’t stop me from being bullied by my women workers there, . I think most women want respect but we have had enough of this media nonsense, . and by the way those ladies in Hollywood are a bunch of… Read more »

Rob Bruce
Guest

“But let’s not forget that women have soft power at their disposal, i.e their femininity, their sexual allure and their attractiveness which can sometimes level the playing field somewhat.”
Haha! Those poor helpless men at the beck and call of their hormones, unable to resist the siren call of a fluttering eyelash. Are we talking about grown-ups here?

JD
Guest
JD

Speaking as a woman, we do indeed know when to flutter our eyelashes and take advantage of situations in our own way. Generally speaking, we can be more devious, emotional and manipulative than men. I’m not trying to discredit genuine cases of sexual harrassment or rape but most of the time we know very well what we’re doing.

Emyr
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Emyr

Maybe would have been nice to hear from some actual women in this debate, but hey.
Strong editorial skills here, nation.cymru! 😉

Sarah Reynolds
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Sarah Reynolds

“victimhood for status”? This kind of language betrays a shocking lack of empathy for the people who have had the courage to speak out about their trauma. “convenient scapegoats.” Scapegoats for whom? If we cannot hold men accountable for their own behaviour, whom should we be holding accountable? The very notion of ‘soft power’ is incredibly insulting. The idea that a woman should be content to demean herself by using her sexuality to achieve her goals demonstrates just how unlevel the playing field is. I am not a ‘female,’ I am a woman and I don’t want soft power, I… Read more »

JD
Guest
JD

The thing is though, sis, is that us women aren’t particularly nice to each other. That would be a start. But you can’t say that for fear of betraying the sisterhood.

Men and women have different currencies – physical and emotional and it’s just human nature that we’ve learned to play to our strengths to get what we want.

Ever heard of the phrase ‘femme fatale’?

Sarah Reynolds
Guest
Sarah Reynolds

If you really believe that the only currency you have as a woman is ‘physical and emotional’ then that is a tragedy.

I believe whole-heartedly in ‘playing to our strengths to get what we want’ but those strengths are our wit, intelligence and talent. We do not have to resort to ‘fluttering our eyelashes’.

The femme fatale is an out-dated caricature that belongs in the past.

JD
Guest
JD

I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that both men and women have both masculine and feminine traits and those in their turn are both positive and negative. It’s all part of the wonderful messy blur of life. #MeToo doesn’t register with the majority of people who couldn’t care less about Hollywood or social media. I also find this ridiculous notion of patriarchy so patronising. Take a look around you. Everything you see was built by men, from masons to architects and they did so to support their families. Historically anyway. Being a man hasn’t been all that throughout history.… Read more »

Sarah Reynolds
Guest
Sarah Reynolds

1. “#MeToo doesn’t register with the majority of people who couldn’t care less about Hollywood or social media.” Where is your evidence for this? I suspect that when you say ‘#MeToo doesn’t register with the majority of people’ what you really mean is, it doesn’t register with you. You are entitled to your opinion but the fact that #MeToo has been used by over 1.7 million people suggests that a great many people disagree with you. 2. “I also find this ridiculous notion of patriarchy so patronising. Take a look around you. Everything you see was built by men, from… Read more »

Cynan
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Cynan

Has it ever occurred to feminists that some of the differences seen between men and women are actually due to the respective CHOICES they make? Voluntary ones. For instance, feminists have been talking about the gender ‘pay gap’ since at least the early 80’s and it was found to be a myth then, just as it is now. The fact is, women and men CHOOSE different careers which are renumerated differently. That’s it. There is no patriarchal conspiracy, just look up from your ideological narrative and look around you… there are women heads of state, senior executives, world leaders, etc.… Read more »

Sarah Reynolds
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Sarah Reynolds

1. “the gender pay gap is a myth” The gender pay gap is a complex issue but it is not a myth. The latest report by The Office for National Statistics found that – The gender pay gap for full-time workers is entirely in favour of men for all occupations – The occupations with the smallest gender pay gap are those which employ an equal number of men and women. – In total, women earn just 52% of what men do every year because not only do they earn less, they are more likely to sacrifice the opportunity to earn… Read more »

Cynan
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Cynan

1. All you need to know is that the supposed gender pay gap does NOT standup to multivariate statistical analysis for reasons you mention yourself (e.g. women typically take time out of their career to have children). When factors such as this are controlled for, the pay gap vanishes. 2. Nice try 😉 You actually make my point for me – that women CHOOSE careers which are paid less (and you have provided a nice example which demonstrates this). The point is, there is absolutely nothing stopping women becoming truck drivers but they choose not to. Also, surely it cannot… Read more »

Sarah Reynolds
Guest
Sarah Reynolds

1. “All you need to know is that the supposed gender pay gap does NOT stand up to multivariate statistical analysis” Are you claiming that you are better informed than The National Office of Statistics? Do you really believe that the finest statisticians in the world have failed to carry out multivariate statistical analysis? If so, where is your evidence? If you can provide a credible source to back up your claim then I would be happy to be read it. 2. “There is absolutely nothing stopping women becoming truck drivers but they choose not to.” There are plenty of… Read more »

Cynan
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Cynan

This is getting tedious now. 1. It is quite clear that you define the gender pay gap differently to the ONS. From the link you provided: “The gender pay gap is defined as the difference in median pay between men and women. The Office for National Statistics headline measure for the gender pay gap is calculated as the difference between median gross hourly earnings (excluding overtime) as a proportion of median gross hourly earnings (excluding overtime) for men. But crucially this measure does not take into account equal pay for equal work.” Do you get it now? Do you see… Read more »

Sarah Reynolds
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Sarah Reynolds

For some reason, I’ve had trouble posting a reply to your latest post. It’s almost as if someone doesn’t want me to be heard…. 1. This is getting tedious now. Really? I’ve enjoyed the debate. I think it’s important that people with opposite points of view are willing to discuss their views. Refusing to engage with one another is what leads to the great polarisation in society that we see currently. 2. It is quite clear that you define the gender pay gap differently to the ONS. From the link you provided: “The gender pay gap is defined as the… Read more »

Cynan
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Cynan

1. Haha, what a fatuous thing to say. Have I said that I don’t want you to be heard? No I haven’t, you said that. I agree that it’s important to engage. Although the left has an increasing, and extremely worrying, habit of preventing these dicussions happening at all because they shout down anyone with an opinion they might disagree with. To your credit, you haven’t done this. Although I still think your idealogy is preventing you from seeing the wood through the trees with regards to most of my points. 2. Again, you completely miss my point and obviously… Read more »

JD
Guest
JD

Again and again, the gender gap has proven to be a myth as women and men make different life choices, even in the most egalitarian societies such as Norway and Sweden, men will gravitate towards higher paying roles and STEM subjects at school. Women still tend to go for more social roles like teachers and nurses when all options are presented to them from age 4 at school. Having said that, girls get better grades at school than boys, more women go to university than men and earn more than men when they leave. Any notion of gender pay gap… Read more »

Efnisien fab Euroswydd
Guest
Efnisien fab Euroswydd

Right under the title “Alt-right”, appears this sentence:

“there is a very misogynistic flavour to the anti-establishment, populist movement that has taken hold within Welsh nationalism recently.”

At whom, I wonder, is this double-blow aimed? It’s disgusting, and backed up with absolutely nothing. It’s just another attempt to smear, and it won’t work. What a hatchet job.

This is why, Ifan, both you and this site – the blog that Leanne never had – are fast losing all credibility.

JD
Guest
JD

I agree – this site had so much potential but is now merely a poor translation of Golwg360/Gwynedd/Feminist angst. There hasn’t been a decent article since before Christmas and I’m getting bored and readers are switching off.

Ifan Morgan Jones
Guest

It’s interesting how the two of you have been posting under every article since October arguing that every article is the worst yet, and that the site is going to the dogs and our readership abandoning us. Given that neither have happened, and in fact the readership is higher than it’s ever been, I wonder what the motivation could be? 😀

Dafis
Guest
Dafis

Ifan keep on producing, you are doing a good job under the circumstances. You and your contributors manage to stimulate a bit of debate although most of the comments indicate that many have deeply embedded opinions and are unlikely to be moved to change. That said, at least you bring out the oddballs and those of us who get quite fixated about the minutae while the big issues of the day are marching past us as though they are invisible and intangible – fine examples of distraction techniques. Wake up you Welsh bellybutton gazers, time is running out ( or… Read more »

JD
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JD

Outright lie.

Efnisien fab Euroswydd
Guest
Efnisien fab Euroswydd

This is what I mean by losing credibility, Ifan. Firstly, you just lie. I’ve commented on very few articles; I’ve not argued once that the article I’m commenting on is worse than any previous one; and I’ve not cliamed the readership is ‘abandoning’ you.

Losing credibility is not the same as losing readership.

Hedd Gwynfor
Guest

Beth am i ti gychwyn gwefan dy hun os ti’n anhapus? Llawer haws cwyno sbo a gwneud DIM!

Efnisien fab Euroswydd
Guest
Efnisien fab Euroswydd

And how do you know I’m ‘doing nothing’?

Are you saying, Hedd, that my criticism is without merit? If so, why don’t you address that?

Tellyesin
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Tellyesin

Are you being paid to do this – contrarian responses designed to imply that only you have a clear map or a Royal Road to perfection? Are you a Russian Spy? and JD? Are you being paid to sit opposite each other in an industrial unit in Deptford, giggling like lunatics and vying to see who can under deliver on the promise of real controversy?

Nostrovia Tovarisch

JD
Guest
JD

What, so anyone who has a different opinion is a Russian troll? Grow up.

Abraham yn Dseina
Guest

Ifan, I support you. I think that what you’ve done with Nation.Cymru has been great, the fact that you have received criticism from both ends of the spectrum with this article suggests that you must be doing a good impartial job. And by the way, Nation.Cymru has been doing a great job for the Welsh national movement, and I feel privileged to have written articles for it. I may even have a new one up my sleave.

Coch-y-bonddu
Guest
Coch-y-bonddu

Easy to see through your tactics seeking to undermine the value of this site.

Keep up the good work Ifan and all the other contributors on here. Independence can’t come quick enough as far as I’m concerned and when it does i am 100% certain we will make a success of it.

Efnisien fab Euroswydd
Guest
Efnisien fab Euroswydd

This is symptomatic of the problem we face. What makes you think this is a ‘tactic’ of any kind? If you take issue with the point I made, address the point. Thus far, neither you, Hedd, nor Ifan have done so, but have rather tried to discredit me, which, ironically, was what my original point alluded to. So, instead of diverting away from my original point, why not address it? You can’t defend the article by implying, as Hedd did, that only praise is allowed, or that I have some grand plan to undermine nation.cymru. Both positions are absurd but,… Read more »

JD
Guest
JD

Clywch clywch.

henacynflin
Guest

I’d agree with Aled Gwyn Job that we need a proper discussion on this important matter. His original blog seemed reasonable and did not warrant the tirade that it engendered. Even the first of the two articles today have not managed to engage constructively with the issues; Dylan Llyr’s piece can be cut down to name calling – if you dare to question our view then you are a misogynist and taking the gateway drug that leads to fascism. This is not helpful. At stake here are important issues of the mistreatment of women and our justice system, The #metoo… Read more »

Sam
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Sam

I’m dismayed by the absurd comments on here that #metoo is some sort of plot. Harassment and assault of women are widespread, if you don’t think that’s true then you simply aren’t listening to women.

I’d love to see actual women write about this on here and hope they aren’t put off by some of these deluded comments.

Simon
Guest
Simon

Topics like this can quickly become very polarized and even bitter. If you want to listen what a wide cross section of women discuss the issues raised by #metoo and 21st century feminism I’d suggest listening to this round-table of women discussing Ella Whelan’s book What Women Want. There is not unanimous agreement, but these topics are explored in a thoughtful and thought-provoking manner. Here’s the Wtwb link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak1zx3sdBCU

Neil McEvoy
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Neil McEvoy

The issue for me is about natural justice, due process and duty of care. We’ve had some concept of natural justice since Roman times but it seems there are too many cases were natural justice is being overridden, and too often by some internet mob. You have third sector organisations who give non-judgmental support only to women. That means these organisation will believe anything you tell them and support you in your accusations. That’s completely inconsistent with natural justice, where if they say someone is guilty of doing something it’s taken as a given. I’m concerned that non-judgmental support is… Read more »

Eos Pengwern
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Eos Pengwern

“We should be able to talk about these things without pitting gender against gender, however people define themselves, against each other. If we want real equality we need to recognise that men and women do terrible things to each other and offer support to all victims.” Wise words. Unfortunately #MeToo is part of a wider tendency on the Left (I won’t call it a plot, but it’s certainly a mindset) to slice and dice society down into competing interest groups and then set them against each other. It’s a form of ‘divide and rule’, and all too often it boils… Read more »

Dafis
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Dafis

“divide and rule” – precisely. The ruling cliques have a good old laff while the little people scramble around chasing shadows.

Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)
Guest

We often make fun of those who disparage nationalism (referring to Welsh nationalism) because their lack of self-awareness leaves them blind to their own British nationalism. They think they’re above nationalism, but they’re not; they just don’t recognise their own nationalism because it happens to conform to the status quo. The think they’re simply normal, and that we are being odd. The same is true with identity politics. The truth is that all politics is identity politics. It’s just that those for whom the status quo works just fine don’t recognise their own politics as such. In fact, the biggest… Read more »

Cynan
Guest
Cynan

Well said, Aled! Absolutely spot on. Some people (e.g. feminists) seem to completely disregard the fact that some women take advantage of said power structures (whether in Hollywood or elsewhere) purely for their own personal gain, e.g. promotion. This happens everywhere in all walks of life and everyone knows it.

John Young
Guest
John Young

Correct. The fact is that human beings can be cruel, selfish, spiteful, vindictive, manipulative, violent etc etc.

Those people can be women as well as men.

C.Davies
Guest
C.Davies

Oh god nothing worse than virtue signalling feminists or feminazis. Amazing how they hate Ring Brids or Grid Girls but have little to say about women dressing in hijab or burkha. Funny that…

Gwylon Phillips
Guest
Gwylon Phillips

Ifan: I applaud the sacrifices you must make to edit this website. `Diolch yn fawr o waelod calon. I am a retired schoolteacher. Throughout my career I regarded all my colleagues as equals and this issue was foreign to me until quite recently. I condemn all those who treat women or men in any disparaging way. It has no place in our society. Men and women are born equal and should remain so.

T
Guest
T

spot on DylanLlyr.

Anarchist and Welsh Nash
Guest
Anarchist and Welsh Nash

Dylan Llyr’s piece sums up this socialist, right-on and morally superior approach which seems to have infected modern feminism as well. Two cheeks of the same ass in fact.

This anarchist wants nothing to do with this type of socialist thought-control. It may amaze some, but I actually find more in common now with some elements of conservative thinking.

At least they believe in individuals as free agents, and don’t try to moralize and shame people to fit in with a top-down, ‘we’re always right’ way of looking at life.

Anarchist, Conservative, Welsh Nash. We live in crazy times……

Gwilym ab Ioan
Guest

Amazing how this ‘non subject’ attracts so much attention. Aled Gwyn Job’s original comments appear to be well thought out, balanced and fair – without being discriminatory to either gender. A bit of balanced common sense (a rare attribute in this upside down and inside out Anglo American world we live in). Sorry to say, to the contrary, Dylan Llŷr’s contribution appears to be a regurgitated flavour of the month drivel by a naive person who seems to believe and echo things he hears and reads from the mainstream (false) media. Wakey wakey Dylan, your perception of reality is –… Read more »

Tellyesin
Guest
Tellyesin

“The essential point I made was that modern feminism seems to have evolved into a narrow ideological way of experiencing and interpreting the world.” The essential point you made was that the Mil and mainstream media outlets have described feminism as a narrow, ideological way of interpreting…….Surely that was what you meant. My daughter is a feminist. I am, so are my brothers and uncles and cousins. Mum was but is dead. My grandparents weren’t. My aunties are and so are most of my daughters friends and parents. We know we’re feminists because when asked the question “Do women get… Read more »

jonesy
Guest
jonesy

Time to move on bois, i have been asking women of all ages and backgrounds who i meet in the business in west Wales during this week what do you think of #Metoo – – the majority thinks its has gone out of all proportion and many never heard of it, because they’ve got lives to live as independent women living in the real world . I would say its a fair reflection across ages/class/background . Arguments about transgender and metoo have become comedic fodder , and that’s not because we are ignorant hambones, anti feminist, anti trans, anti this… Read more »